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Old 07-02-2013, 12:38 PM
pdgavin pdgavin is offline
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Echo is a very complicated issue to trouble shoot. There are several types of echo and even multiple causes of the same type. To make things even more complicated you may have several of these issues at the same time. You also did not state who is hearing the echo. For the most common cause of echo, in general if you hear echo the problem causing it is usually on the other end so are the people inside the office hearing it or are people calling in hearing it? Imagine yourself in a cavern and shout hello. Your voice bounces off the wall and comes back to you. If the wall wasn't there you would not hear the echo. Please note that although the problem may be on the other end you may be able to eliminate or reduce it on your end but in most cases you will have to eliminate the problem at the source, if the problem is caused by someone on an analog phone line calling into your system and their line is not properly setup there may not be a lot you can do on your end. A PRI has 4 wires and the send and receive talk path are each isolated on their own pair and you have echo cancelation circuitry built into the PRI lines that buffers several milliseconds of signal and looks to see if that signal repeats and if it does it drops that echo. Analog lines are only 2 wires so both the send and receive are on the same pair, because the send and receive are not isolated your voice can bounce off the analog set and get reflected back to you. If the analog lines are not properly balanced/provisioned then they can be the source of echo.

Delay can cause problems with the echo cancelation circuitry, this is because the echo cancellation buffers are only so big and if the delay is larger than the buffer the echo slips through. Delay is cumulative, multiple conversions from VoIP to TDM and back will cause more and more delay. One way to help with this is to change/lock down the codec in the IP Office that the phones use to G711 to reduce the latency inherent in compressing speech, think of ripping a CD to an MP3. It takes time to process the sound:

Latency: Less than 180ms for good quality. Less than 80ms for toll quality.
This is the measurement of packet transfer time in one direction. The range 80ms to 180ms is generally acceptable. Note that the different audio codecs used each impose a fixed delay caused by the codec conversion as follows:
G.711: 20ms.
G.722: 40ms.
G.729: 40ms.

You can also try the G.722 codec on the 9600 series phones this will improve the bandwidth and sound quality without significantly increasing the delay.

If you are using analog lines there is an impedance wizard you can run to try to correct a poorly engineered analog trunk if you are using analog trunks on your IP Office. It will not do anything if the problem is on the other end but if you have analog lines you should use this tool to make sure the impedance settings are at the optimum value.

If you are an authorized Avaya business partner there are a couple of tech tips written on echo, they are available on the IP Office Knowledgebase if you are an authorized BP. Tech tip 141 and 195. There are other documents on the support web site as well and you can probably find them outside Avaya’s web sites too.

Other things you can try to improve the overall voice quality on IP sets:

You can also turn off AGC on the phone for the headset, handset and speaker phone depending upon where you are having the problem. There are also other audio environment settings that can be changed by the setting file for an IP phone but there are several hundred values so you really should seek out help in setting them.

Please note that these are a few very simple explanations and suggestions of a very complicated issue. Even for experienced engineers troubleshooting echo is a very complicated issue. It requires that you define exactly what type of echo you are experiencing and where the source is and what can be done to improve the issue. I would recommend you create a trouble ticket and escalate it to Avaya Backbone support if you are having issues. If we had total control of all the components from handset to handset we wouldn’t have any of these issues When you use digital phones we eliminate the customers network equipment and the conversion from TDM to VoIP which simplifies things, unfortunately the lack of total control makes it more complicated for IP phones.

Pete G
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:39 PM
pdgavin pdgavin is offline
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Default More on echo

3.3 Echo
There are only two physical sources of echo in telephony: electrical echo (or network echo), and
acoustic echo. Electrical echo is caused by a reflection of the speech signal at 2-to-4-wire hybrid
circuitry. This circuitry is present in analog trunk cards, and it also exists deep within the PSTN
(at customer premises, for example). Acoustic echo is caused by the physical coupling (air path,
appliance-body path) between a loudspeaker and a microphone, for example, in a
speakerphone, a handset and a headset. Whether or not a talker actually perceives electrical or
acoustic echo depends on the loudness of his/her reflected voice signal and the roundtrip delay
that that reflection suffers. The loudness of the reflection at the point of reflection depends upon
the electrical impedance mismatch, for electrical echoes, and the acoustic gain of the
loudspeaker-to-microphone path, for acoustic echoes. The roundtrip delay is a function of the
path the reflected signal traverses, which in turn is a function of the call topology.
3.3.1 Electrical echo, also called network echo: reflection of a talker's speech signal at a
point of 2-to-4-wire conversion caused by an impedance mismatch at the point of
analog-to-digital conversion.
3.3.2 Acoustic echo: reflection of a talker's speech signal at an acoustic endpoint caused by
the acoustic coupling between the loudspeaker and microphone.
3.3.3 Constant echo: when talking, the perception of echo with every utterance. Such cases
occur when there is a physical electrical or acoustic echo path but no echo controller in
the call topology to control echo. Additionally, constant echo may result even though an
echo controller is known to be in the call path; this indicates a complete failure of the
echo controller, usually because the capabilities of the echo controller are exceeded
(e.g., the echo tail length exceeds the specifications of the echo controller).
3.3.4 Intermittent echo: when talking, the occasional perception of echo. Intermittent echo
often caused by the intermittent failure of an echo controller in the call path. The echo
suppressor within the echo controller may fail to engage (to apply echo attenuation)
when necessary, with the result that short bursts of echo become audible. In acoustic
echo control applications (speakerphone) in which people or objects close to the
speakerphone are moving, the change to the physical echo path often results in audible
intermittent acoustic echo to listeners at the other end of the call.
3.3.5 Residual echo: when talking, the perception of very low-level (quiet) echo. The echo
could be either constant or intermittent. Residual echo can be caused by PSTN
electrical echo that is not entirely removed by the echo controller in the call path.
3.3.6 Distorted or buzz-like echo: when talking the perception of a distorted echo or buzzlike
sound. This can be caused by a non-linear echo source. An example of this is
saturation distortion at an analog trunk interface. In this case, signals low in amplitude
are reflected cleanly, but signals high in amplitude are returned with significant distortion
making it difficult for an echo canceler to control echo. Such distorted echo can be
perceived constantly or intermittently, depending on the degree of distortion and the
echo canceler(s) involved.
3.3.7 Slapback or kickback acoustic echo: this is strictly a phenomenon of acoustic echo.
With speakerphones, slapback or kickback echo is the intermittent echo perceived at the
ends of one's utterances. This can occur with both older-model half-duplex
©2005 Avaya Inc. All Rights Reserved. Page 6
speakerphones and newer-model acoustic-echo canceling speakerphones. For
example, a talker speaking into a handset utters the phrase “Please send me the check”
and perceives echo primarily at the end of his/her sentence. This echo is described as
hearing just the sound “eck” or “k” of the word “check,” or as a slapping sound such as
that made by slapping one’s palm against a desktop. Commonly, slapback/kickback
echo is caused by acoustically reverberant rooms. Large offices and conference rooms
can have long reverberation times. In such rooms, the speakerphone senses at its
microphone a reverberated version of the word “check” (our prior example) several tens
or even hundreds of milliseconds after the far talker has finished saying the word
“check.” The speakerphone algorithm detects this reverberated speech at its
microphone, detects no speech at its receive-path driving the loudspeaker, and decides
to transition to transmit mode. The reverberated version of "check" is transmitted back to
the far talker, where it is perceived as echo.
3.3.8 Sidetone: in handsets and headsets, a portion of the microphone energy is fed back to
the earpiece so that the user of the handset/headset does has a psychoacoustic
experience that simulates the case in which the user's ear is not occluded by an object
(the handset earpiece). Without sidetone injection, the user experiences the
psychoacoustically bothersome condition that can be demonstrated to oneself by
pressing a finger into one ear while speaking. With one ear occluded, the sound of one’s
own voice is dominated by the path through the interior of the head (skull, etc.) instead
of around the head, an effect that most people find objectionable.
3.3.9 Hot sidetone: in a handset or headset, microphone-to-earpiece sidetone injection is not
normally noticed. Some digital phones, in particular, IP phones in which the internal
audio processing frame rate is 5 ms or greater, inject sidetone with an appreciable delay
(e.g., 5 ms) in the microphone-to-earpiece signal path. This delay causes the sidetone to
sound reverberant and/or louder than normal, or hot. Though hot sidetone is a type of
echo source – because some people may use the term “echo” to describe hot sidetone
– it is generated local to the telephone, not at some point within the telephone network.

Pete G
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:40 PM
pdgavin pdgavin is offline
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Default even more on echo

3.3.10 Short-path acoustic echo, short-path electrical echo: acoustic or electrical echo that
occurs in a very short roundtrip call topology. This type of echo is commonly described
as a hollow sound or sound of speaking in a barrel (see 2.1.3). In a digital-to-digital
phone call (think DCP-to-DCP), station-to-station, the roundtrip delay is usually very
small, less than 10 ms. Some digital speakerphones produce significant acoustic echo,
which is not canceled, suppressed, or otherwise controlled in this simple call topology. In
these cases, and depending on the volume setting of the far-party’s speakerphone and
near-party’s listening handset, the near party may perceive echo and refer to this as hot
sidetone. Again, this is truly acoustic echo from the speakerphone but is returned to the
talker with such a short roundtrip delay that it is perceived as hollowness or
reverberance rather than as classic echo. Because of the short roundtrip delay in this
case, it can be difficult to distinguish between hot sidetone (see definition) and short-path

Pete G
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:44 PM
asimbu asimbu is offline
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Originally Posted by furrerm View Post
You have not indicated what type of trunks you have.

And, as Pete has mentioned, do not dismiss QoS.

Are you using CCR? If so, Are the CCR agents using IP sets? Are those agents in alot of hunt groups?

Are Vlans set up for voice? Who set them up?

We using analogue trunk lines. By the way, our company based in Brunei and I'm not sure if the IP office needs to match with local telephony provider trunk lines?
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:32 PM
jtobon jtobon is offline
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En la central IP Office release 7.0 (32) y en 8.0 (44) en adelante se corrige la falla que se te biene presentando con los ip phones 16XX.
cambia en lineas analogas/opciones analogicas/ Ganancia en ambos campos pasarla a -2.5 Db y se te corrige la falla, recuerda que requiere de reinicio.
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Old 07-16-2013, 07:08 AM
pdgavin pdgavin is offline
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Default We using analogue trunk lines. By the way, our company based in Brunei and I'm not su

You should always run the impedance wizard. Those values must always be optimized and it doesn't matter where they are or who is providing them.

Pete G.
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:00 PM
thomp370 thomp370 is offline
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I also had this problem and tried upgrading to 9.0 same thing. The only way for IP phones to work with IP office well is SIP trunks or PRI analog trunks will not.

You want a upset customer sell them a IP Office with Analog trunks
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